Trees grow in Brooklyn (s1e11)
This one's for my city folks - nature isn't just for the burbs! And BTW, I thought I knew what I meant by "plant time" but this chat with my friend, the ever-poetic Joél Leon, put it on a whole new level.
[marked "explicit" for its authentic NYC language only]
For a constant feed of wisdom from Joél Leon, check out his Instagram.
Want to see pics from the garden? Instagram: @freshclippings
Show art by Alison McKenzie
Production guidance from Evan Roberts
Special thanks to Jeremy Bloom
Episode music from Blue Dot Sessions:
Our Son the Potter (Love and Weasel)
Pigpaddle Creek (Sour Mash)
Gamboler (Pglet)
Pili Piper (Pglet)
Frank and Poet (Reflections)
Transcript
Tofa can you hear me?
Topher:Yo.
Topher:Yep.
Topher:Yeah.
Topher:I can hear you.
Topher:Can you hear me?
Joel:Yeah, man, loud and clear.
Topher:Good to see you
Joel:Likewise man, you look great.
Joel:You sound great.
Topher:yeah.
Topher:Back at you.
Topher:Yeah.
Topher:Discovering my new hometown of Portland through working with my garden has
Topher:been so beautiful and satisfying.
Topher:But lately I've also been thinking about where I've come
Topher:from before moving out here.
Topher:I lived in New York City for 15 years, and so that's why
Topher:I called my friend Joel Leon.
Topher:Besides being a prolific Instagram poet and brilliant speaker,
Topher:He actually gave a TED Talk.
Topher:He's a lifelong New Yorker, and I wanted to talk about
Topher:gardening for all my city folks.
Topher:We connected earlier this summer and our call had all the sounds that brought me
Topher:right back to Brooklyn, the window AC unit, people moving in other rooms of the
Topher:apartment, even a classic door buzzer.
Topher:Our conversation took turns I never expected
Topher:and actually left me feeling really deeply moved.
Topher:I think you'll enjoy it too.
Topher:So come on, let's get back to Brooklyn.
Topher:Introduce me to your plant that you got going on in the back too.
Joel:Well, so I think this is, is this Tina or Aretha
Joel:Bria named these plants, man.
Joel:So like, I think this is Aretha.
Joel:Aretha is the one that's actually doing better than Tina.
Joel:Tina is in the, um, in the living room and like the way, the way the plant
Joel:is situated, it's getting the right amount of light, but the kids just
Joel:be walking and running through it.
Joel:And now we got a puppy.
Joel:So they like, he be trying to chew on shit.
Joel:This is, you know, but this one, but I think this is aha.
Joel:Aretha is doing well.
Joel:I don't, I don't talk to her.
Joel:I don't, I mean, not cuz like I'm ignoring her, but like that's this is Bri's plan.
Joel:Like I just be chilling, you know, it's just black here
Joel:in the background, you know?
Topher:Yeah.
Topher:Well, she brings a lot of dignity and a lot of gravitas to the frame.
Topher:So
Joel:I love that.
Joel:I love
Topher:she's well named
Joel:Yeah.
Joel:Yeah.
Joel:Yeah.
Joel:. Look at you.
Joel:Exactly name, perfect name perfectly.
Topher:Like, should I give you a little bit of like a, a, like a
Topher:heads up of like what the podcast is about and stuff like that?
Joel:I mean, I, I, I, I mean, you kind of gave me, I feel like you gave me a
Joel:pretty good, um, synopsis of the DMS, but Cuz I did what, what I did after we
Joel:DMed, I went, I went to the page cause I there's like a there's um, I just
Joel:love the idea of, um, like plant time in general, cuz I think plant time with
Joel:the way you're speaking to it's really interchangeable with anything that allows
Joel:us the opportunity to be present and like find like, you know, joy in that presence.
Joel:You know, whether that's like, if that, but it's, it is rooted in
Joel:something it's rooted in something that I think is very, um, important.
Joel:Right.
Joel:Which is like nature, you know, like even when, when we're talking
Joel:about climate change, it's, it's, it's easy to take for granted, um,
Joel:how much we need the earth, right?
Joel:Like how much it feeds us on a daily basis that we take for granted in
Joel:so many ways, especially, and it it's easy to, to do I think in urban
Joel:environments because it's like, oh.
Joel:I don't have a backyard or, oh, I don't have this much access to nature in this
Joel:way or that way, but it's like, you know, what, how much trees affect, um, trees
Joel:affect environments and neighborhoods, which, which environments, lack trees and
Joel:you know, who has access to a park and who doesn't like so much of this is, is, is
Joel:also like so much of what you're talking about is also a bigger conversation around
Joel:why nature is important to communities.
Joel:So, yeah, I, I, I love this man.
Topher:I think that's, I mean, some of the stuff you're bringing up is
Topher:exactly why I wanted to talk with you.
Topher:One of the things that I was actually curious about is just in terms
Topher:of born and raised in the Bronx,
Joel:Yeah.
Topher:when you think of sort of like, it's easy for me to be like,
Topher:oh my mom and I would go in my backyard and she would show me how
Topher:to like plant cucumbers or something.
Topher:And that is my upbringing as a person who grew up in a position of privilege and if
Topher:a certain like income level, family level, et cetera, um, that isn't something that's
Topher:necessarily available for everybody, . So for me, there's two questions.
Topher:One is that like, I'd love to hear a little bit more about.
Topher:Your upbringing was like, and how you interacted with nature in that
Topher:regard, like what was nature and gardening to you in the Bronx?
Topher:Um, and then related to that is like, , even though I lived in
Topher:New York for 15 years, I still have like a suburban bias, right.
Topher:Where I'm like, emotionally having a response sometimes that's like,
Topher:when I think about the urban L.
Topher:sometimes I can think about it and think that it like feels
Topher:like it's different than nature.
Topher:And when in fact nature is still all around you in an urban environment too.
Topher:So I'm curious to kind of run those two ideas by you and see
Topher:where some of that takes you.
Topher:. ? Joel: But I think so.
Topher:I mean, lets I mean, first of all, I mean those are really great questions
Topher:and I think the suburban bias is what also thank you for acknowledging that.
Topher:I think also, I mean, cuz I think growing up in the, growing up
Topher:in the Bronx, we didn't really.
Topher:Okay.
Topher:Nature was different for us.
Topher:And depending on where you grew up in which neighborhood you grew up in, and
Topher:even honestly, what school you, you grew up in, um, in like who your teachers
Topher:were so much of the environments.
Topher:And I think this is why they, I mean, some of the suburban biases justified
Topher:is because depending on the environment you grew up in and who you had access to
Topher:determined your relationship to nature.
Topher:Right?
Topher:cuz most of my friends growing up, our parents were immigrants.
Topher:Like they came from the Caribbean, they came from environments
Topher:where it was like, you know, they were fully immersed in nature.
Topher:Right?
Topher:Like my mom grew up in Dominica like an island, you know?
Topher:So like she could go climb a tree and grab a coconut or a mango or the
Topher:beach was literally right by a house.
Topher:Like my mom grew up.
Topher:Like we had a lot of land.
Topher:And so, you know, my, my, my grandfather had chickens and Brewsters and goats.
Topher:Like you would just go in the backyard and, and, and kill a goat.
Topher:And that was dinner.
Topher:Like that's, that's why my mom grew up.
Topher:Um, but that, wasn't a thing that was necessary possible here.
Topher:. , . like New York makes you just work a little bit harder for things.
Topher:It's not like there isn't nature, but in order to get to it, you have to take
Topher:the Metro north or you have, or you need a car in order to drive an hour to
Topher:upstate or go to the outskirts of like Westchester or like Dobbs ferry, where
Topher:you're going to be engaging with nature.
Topher:That's essentially in your backyard.
Topher:Um, but I think, I think people run amiss when they don't realize that there is
Topher:nature here, you know, it's different and it's not the same as the nature you
Topher:would get growing up in, uh, you know, a Maine or, you know, um, or Utah, like
Topher:where, like, you know, you could almost look out of a window and, and see mountain
Topher:side, like California, you can just hop in your car and drive up and down to PCH.
Topher:And like, you're already there.
Topher:You know, um, this is more work required here.
Topher:It's not as accessible.
Topher:Um, but it's here just requires people being invested in
Topher:nurturing the nature around us.
Topher:Us and making a commitment to expose ourselves and each other to it, you know?
Topher:I was curious if you had any community gardens in your area, because
Topher:that was one of the things that challenged my conception of what a city is and looks
Topher:like, is that when I moved to the first place I lived in was basically east
Topher:village right above the lower east side.
Topher:And there are tons of community gardens, every block or two there's a
Topher:different community garden tended by different people in the neighborhood.
Topher:And that was really mind blowing to me that actually, once I kind of got it and
Topher:realized that if you were in a helicopter and pulled up and looked down, you were
Topher:looking at this patchwork quilt with a lot of little blocks of green and together.
Topher:That's why you have birds when you wake up in the morning
Joel:Mmm.
Joel:Mm.
Topher:just pigeons.
Topher:That's why you can have this smell of green.
Topher:Or you can have people who have fresh herbs or fresh tomatoes.
Topher:And that really challenged in some ways, my assumptions that I
Topher:had been given about, like what.
Topher:And urban landscape is supposed to look like.
Joel:you know, like even when we think about farmer's markets now, right.
Joel:And when we talk about access to herbs and you're also seeing, I think even
Joel:now the proliferation of a lot of black folks, black and brown folks,
Joel:especially trying to get back to the root.
Joel:Right.
Joel:And so like, oh, if I'm not living in the south, I can still tend to a garden the
Joel:same way my grandmother used to do back when, you know what I'm saying before,
Joel:before the great migration happened.
Joel:And so you're starting to see a lot of black folks investing in, oh, I, I have
Joel:a little piece of slice of a, of a, of a garden that I can put on my fire escape.
Joel:Or if I have, if I have property or if I'm renting a place that has a
Joel:backyard, oh, I can maybe grow some herbs here, maybe some onions here.
Joel:I can figure out what works here.
Topher:I think it's really interesting that you mention that because to me,
Topher:that's one of the things that I think is fundamental about gardening that.
Topher:Is healing is the ability to interact with land, even if it's on your
Topher:fire escape and in a little pot
Joel:Mm.
Topher:like rooting and you're connected to something that is longer
Topher:than just that day, that week it's connected to a year, a season, um,
Topher:your ability to be in that place.
Topher:. Joel: Yeah.
Topher:how that connects to your concept of maybe gardening or being with nature.
Topher:And there's elements of that, that feel true for your backgrounder
Topher:that you see in your life now.
Joel:Well, I think, you know, the, the first thing that
Joel:comes to mind to me are trees.
Joel:You know, I kind of, I spoke to it earlier, but like I love trees.
Joel:I love trees.
Joel:And I think when I think about roots and soil and dirt, there's so much suit to
Joel:your point over there's so much history.
Joel:Right.
Joel:And, and there's so much.
Joel:Seru history, even in just like a tree, right?
Joel:Like you look at a tree, it's easy to forget how long it's been here and how
Joel:long it's gonna be here after we're gone.
Joel:Right.
Joel:There's like a whole, there's like multitudes of lives lived in,
Joel:in, in these pieces of, of earth that are coming from the ground.
Joel:And like also too in the dirt, you know, like gardening and you kind of
Joel:touched on this, even if we're doing it separately, you know, gardening
Joel:is a very communal experience.
Joel:Um, I think because there is this, there is the, the process of like
Joel:uprooting the process of preparing land dirt for the arrival of something.
Joel:Um, I think that is a process that is a shared thing.
Joel:Um, and then I think too, there's like, you know, you know, already
Joel:there's a community, right.
Joel:And I think the more we can find ways to.
Joel:embrace the communities that mean and speak to us the, the better we are, right?
Joel:Like you, you kind of touched on it earlier as well, that
Joel:makes the world better.
Joel:And it can easily feel like this small act of planting a seed, you
Joel:know, um, is not doing anything.
Joel:But like planting seeds is very much a thing that comes from the idea
Joel:of earth, where like, we're talking about plant seeds that are going to
Joel:grow into something that are going to grow into a harvest of things.
Joel:And that, that harvest could be something that's as small as like a
Joel:container that's like three by four, or it could be the planting of a
Joel:business or whatever, but all these things live in community of each other.
Joel:And I think for me, when I look at a tree, I think of how a
Joel:tree exists in all these things.
Joel:. Topher: Yeah.
Joel:That makes me think.
Joel:A lot of, one of the reasons that I wanted to talk with you in the first, that kind
Joel:of inspired me to be like, I need to get Joel and like kick ideas around with him.
Joel:Um, you know, you're talking about creating life.
Joel:Um, and one of the areas that I feel that very emotionally.
Joel:Yep.
Topher:Is when I read your Instagram post, like, I feel like that is an act
Topher:of creation and an act of kind of like sharing and love, um, that, and, and
Topher:specifically I went back and hunted cuz I was like, I know there's like a post.
Topher:And I found the post that was like, okay, I need to unpack this more with you.
Topher:Cuz it feels so timely to not just what we're talking about, but also in general
Topher:sort of like the vibe that I get from reading, what you share on Instagram.
Topher:Um, and so it's life hack name one of your plants after you.
Topher:So when you talk to it, when you feed it, love water, light and affirmations,
Topher:you'll be telling and feeding yourself, all the things you need.
Topher:And I think that is beautiful.
Topher:Cuz I name my plants.
Topher:You name your plants.
Topher:You've got Aretha hanging out right behind you.
Joel:Yeah,
Topher:Um, but I'm wondering if you sort of share, like, what were you
Topher:thinking when you went into that?
Topher:Like, you know, what does that bring back for you?
Topher:I don't know if you've thought about that idea in a while.
Joel:I haven't.
Joel:But you bringing it up has made me try to recall where that came from.
Joel:And I feel like,
Joel:I think it literally, I, I can't remember who it was.
Joel:A friend of mine, I think had bought a plan and.
Joel:, they put up one of those like prompts on, on like a IG story.
Joel:Like what should I name my plant?
Joel:And I was like, oh, well, you know, actually it might be a good idea.
Joel:And I think I started typing it.
Joel:And then I was like, oh wait, I think this is actually a great way for people to come
Joel:back to self, you know, because you know, I mean to, you're familiar with like how I
Joel:show up in social and just, I think in the world in general, and it, it was like, how
Joel:do we, how do we best affirm ourselves?
Joel:And for me, it was like, oh, you talk to a plant.
Joel:And I think that's what it was to knowing.
Joel:Like there's certain things you're supposed to do in order to help
Joel:nurture the life of a plant.
Joel:And it's like, oh, you should name the plant yourself.
Joel:If you're going to, and, or name it something, that's going to be a reminder
Joel:to you to pour love back into yourself.
Joel:Cuz you have to take care of this thing in the same way you take care of a
Joel:plant, you absolutely should be taking care of yourself in the similar fashion.
Joel:Like you have to water your plant a certain amount of times over the court,
Joel:depending on what the plant is, right.
Joel:Whether it's every day, every week, once a month, whatever.
Joel:Um, but there's still an intentionality behind it.
Joel:Like there's a focus behind it.
Joel:And I think so.
Joel:We get caught up in the, the, the, uh, the elevator, right.
Joel:Of like, I gotta do this, I gotta do this.
Joel:I gotta do this.
Joel:Or we're stuck on the hamster wheel of like, where's the next thing.
Joel:And the, the plant time is essentially you asking folks to slow down and
Joel:be intentional about the time that's invested in the personal care.
Joel:You know, and for me, naming a plant yourself is it's more, it's not even
Joel:really about naming the plant after you.
Joel:It's the reminder that you need to be taking care of yourself as much as you do
Joel:this plant that you've put a lot of money into probably, you know, like there's
Joel:like, and like now having a plan, like having a house playing is like a thing.
Joel:Right.
Joel:It's cool.
Joel:You know?
Joel:So like people take pictures of it on Instagram, they take care of it,
Joel:but it's like, when's the last time you ordered yourself, you know, and
Joel:wanting to get, like, I try to create.
Joel:Prompts for people that are servicing them in a way that's like, oh, I need to
Joel:slow down for a minute and not get caught in an algorithm and ask some of these
Joel:questions and part, like, part of that was like the life hack, I think in that way.
Topher:I mean, it's, I like, it's making me smile from my heart.
Topher:Like I'm not even just like smiling on my face, just like that idea, because it's so
Topher:connected to like a totally different way of thinking, you know, like that idea of
Topher:the love that you put into something first off, recognizing that it's love, rather
Topher:than thinking about it, like a chore.
Joel:Mm.
Joel:Yeah.
Topher:that you can turn that into something that you do for yourself as well
Joel:Mm.
Topher:something that we, it looks like easy to double tap on Instagram,
Topher:but actually, if you think about it, it's really revolutionary to think
Topher:about how you bring that into it's like small little practices into your life.
Topher:Like , all you do is give it plan a nickname.
Topher:And then that unlocks a totally different way of thinking.
Joel:You know, I mean, there's a, there's a lot of reasons
Joel:why I, I, I, I love utopian.
Joel:I'm a fan of you.
Joel:I, I think part of that, like how you frame that I think is important
Joel:because like you choosing to garden that's, that is an act of love.
Joel:Like when we talk about the bell hooks of the world, the RJ Lords of
Joel:the world, what I've been employing a lot of us to do more of is yes.
Joel:Like it put it in your safe thing on Instagram, share it on IG stories.
Joel:But Tara Brock talks often.
Joel:Taking the practice off the mat.
Joel:Right?
Joel:Like we do these things and it's like, oh, I engage with this post.
Joel:Yes girl.
Joel:Yes.
Joel:Queen.
Joel:Yeah, my brother, I love this.
Joel:And it's like, then you go to work and you're a douche bag.
Joel:it's like, like, what are you doing?
Joel:Like, how are, how are we implementing the practice?
Joel:And I think part of that is recognizing that everything we do gets to be a
Joel:revolutionary act of love everything.
Joel:And I think so often people would ask me, um, like, how do
Joel:you show up as yourself at work?
Joel:And I was like, what I, for me, what I do is I don't, I take
Joel:my practice with me everywhere.
Joel:There was no place where my practice is not going to be valid and valuable.
Joel:And so much of what we forget to do is like, I show up with love because I want
Joel:folks to feel like they can embrace that the totality of that, wherever they are.
Joel:So like, if I'm in a, if I'm in a meeting about, I don't know, cars and
Joel:we're talking about cars and it's like, there gets to be love in this space.
Joel:And like, I want us for like really quickly just to remove ourselves from
Joel:the idea that the work that we're doing is only about the work that we're doing.
Joel:You know, like it can be so much more than that.
Joel:And if we allow just a small kernel that.
Joel:Into the room.
Joel:If we in, if we create the invitation for that, if I do that, somebody else
Joel:might feel inclined to do that too.
Joel:Maybe not on the call, I'm on with them right now, but maybe three
Joel:calls later or a month later.
Joel:And that's what seed planting is.
Joel:It's like, I'm not, you know, we want this, like the act of gardening is so
Joel:beautiful to me because what you're saying is I am investing in this process and I
Joel:don't necessarily know what the outcome, even if I do all the things, you know,
Joel:like it might not be successful, but I'm invested in the process, you know?
Joel:And you know, that's what love is, it's the process.
Topher:Yeah.
Joel:You know,
Topher:Yeah.
Topher:Yeah.
Topher:That's beautiful.
Topher:Well, I'm gonna let you get back to being a human and a dad and like a,
Topher:a, a person who has other things in their life, uh, besides just talking
Topher:with me, but I really, I appreciate you spending this much time with me.
Topher:I feel like.
Topher:This, uh, exploration of these ideas has really been a blessing.
Topher:And I just am so grateful to have like shared this time to just kinda like,
Topher:talk about all this crazy stuff with
Joel:Same, same Trevor.
Joel:This is beautiful, man.
Joel:And like, I'm glad that you do reach out to me about this and like I'm, I'm
Joel:always gonna be here for that work.
Joel:So like, anytime, man, this is, this is great.
Topher:For Clippings, this is Tofa Burns.
