Episode 8

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Published on:

19th Aug 2022

Wanna get wild? (s1e08)

Landscape architect and Clippings luminary Rachelle Crosby and I chop it up. She unleashes hot tips from her approach to cultivating wild spaces, and shares how her indigenous Laguna Pueblo background has shaped her relationship with plants.

The live audio at the end of the episode was captured in her wild sunflower space!

Want to see pics from the garden? Instagram: @freshclippings


Show art by Alison McKenzie

Production guidance from Evan Roberts

Special thanks to Jeremy Bloom


Episode music from Blue Dot Sessions:

Our Son the Potter (Love and Weasel)

Gamboler (Pglet)

Frank and Poet (Reflections)

Transcript
Topher:

I'm excited cuz you are clearly the most qualified voice

Topher:

we've ever had on this podcast.

Topher:

And that's just barely beating out my 11 year old niece.

Topher:

but you know, so for the, for folks who don't know you by reputation,

Topher:

you trained as a landscape architect from Rhode Island school of design.

Topher:

You now work in

Rachelle:

work for the city parks department in Farmington.

Topher:

And, more importantly, you helped design my mom's backyard.

Rachelle:

and built just to, you know, you know, let's give, let's give the props.

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

When and did a fabulous job, um, So let's, I mean, I would love

Topher:

to start with just learning.

Topher:

Like, what does it mean to be a landscape architect?

Rachelle:

Yeah.

Rachelle:

Yeah.

Rachelle:

Okay.

Rachelle:

Gosh, that's such a huge question.

Rachelle:

Um, you know, what it means to be a landscape architect is like it's a balance

Rachelle:

between, um, you know, designing and being able to at least draw things to be

Rachelle:

constructed, to like keep people safe.

Topher:

Okay.

Rachelle:

but also like thinking about, um, you know, the way people experience

Rachelle:

things, um, or how you're going to limit the experience of things, You know,

Rachelle:

whether that's a bus stop or . Um, trash receptacles so, you know, there's,

Rachelle:

there's a lot of kind of mundane things in it, for example, I mean, I'm, I'm

Rachelle:

working on a parking lot project, you know, um, but then I'm also working on

Rachelle:

an all abilities park, so it it's a full spectrum of functional things within

Rachelle:

our public space, but then also, you know, sensory and experiential things.

Topher:

so.

Topher:

In that space, how much of that is like plant stuff, garden stuff

Topher:

versus like just straight up cement

Rachelle:

Sidewalks.

Topher:

like that.

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

right,

Rachelle:

So, I'm glad you asked that question because I think that's

Rachelle:

a, that's one of the biggest kind of misconceptions that I encounter

Rachelle:

is that I am, I am a plants expert.

Rachelle:

I'm not even though, you know,

Topher:

okay.

Topher:

Put a pause.

Topher:

We need to find a new guest.

Topher:

What

Rachelle:

and call.

Rachelle:

I mean, especially.

Rachelle:

So, you know, when, when I work on projects that are at the scale of like

Rachelle:

your mom's space, then I do get to exercise a little bit more of what it's

Rachelle:

like to plant, you know, certain shrubs or certain grasses that will have like a,

Rachelle:

a more atmospheric feel or, you know, I can play with plants to create buffers or

Rachelle:

to create screening or to create aroma, you know, Small kind of residential scale.

Rachelle:

I, I get to play with plants, which is great, but then, you know, if we're

Rachelle:

talking about larger scale, I mean, there's plants in everything, but you

Rachelle:

know, when I'm talking about a civic landscape, you know, that kind of tends to

Rachelle:

be a little bit more performative based.

Rachelle:

So I need to spec out trees that are going to withstand salt that are going to.

Rachelle:

Stand, um, you know, lots of traffic on the roots.

Rachelle:

Um, you had a great episode talking about how to encourage roots to grow deep into

Rachelle:

the soil rather than being superficial.

Rachelle:

And so, you know, because a lot of our plantings are, are fed by irrigation.

Rachelle:

Sometimes we have superficial root systems, you know, so I kind of think

Rachelle:

about things differently at a larger municipal scale of, of, like I said,

Rachelle:

kind of more of like a, a high perform.

Rachelle:

I need the workhorses of plants rather than these.

Topher:

no show

Rachelle:

Yeah.

Rachelle:

Yeah.

Rachelle:

rather than sort of like the, the beautiful, you know, supermodels

Topher:

Mm-hmm mm-hmm

Topher:

I love that.

Topher:

So you were bringing up, um, a little bit of, kind of like your experience,

Topher:

um, and the reason that I'm excited to kind of talk about that more is

Topher:

that you bring a really different perspective to working with plants,

Topher:

landscape, that sort of thing.

Topher:

could you tell us a little bit more about kind of your background

Topher:

and what you bring to these that is different than most people?

Rachelle:

Yeah.

Rachelle:

Yeah.

Rachelle:

So, you know, I am from the same place as you . Um, but

Rachelle:

specifically my mom is Pueblo.

Rachelle:

So we're from Laguna Pueblo, which is about 40 miles west of Albuquerque.

Rachelle:

And my dad is from South Carolina, like the country.

Rachelle:

Um, so.

Rachelle:

What's interesting is like they, they kind of have similar backgrounds in

Rachelle:

a way because my dad's people were farmers that's, that's what they did.

Rachelle:

They were agriculturalists.

Rachelle:

Um, and my mom, while not recently comes from agricultural people,

Rachelle:

but Pueblo, that's what we did.

Rachelle:

We farmed, we created farming essentially for the area.

Rachelle:

Um, so it's, it's very interesting to think like even just like, thinking

Rachelle:

about dealing with water, you know, and like all of the really beautiful

Rachelle:

irrigated irrigation practices that Pueblo's developed to control

Rachelle:

this super, super sparse resource.

Rachelle:

Right.

Rachelle:

Um, and so, Actually that the biggest thing that I draw from my cultural

Rachelle:

background is not even necessarily like specifically what like to do

Rachelle:

with plantings, but more so to do with community and sort of like how

Rachelle:

communities are engaged with the planting or the designing of public space.

Topher:

I was even thinking about how in pop culture and in cultural

Topher:

conversations right now, there's a lot more interest in kind of like

Topher:

indigenous patterns and relationships with nature and things like that.

Topher:

One of the things that like.

Topher:

I brought with me to the podcast was growing up with my mom who always

Topher:

kind of like, not humanized, but like dimensionalized the plants that she

Topher:

was raising, you know, and like had a relationship with those plants.

Topher:

This one likes this, this one's so happy.

Topher:

You know, like those types of

Rachelle:

Mm-hmm

Topher:

I was curious from the, from your own indigenous

Topher:

perspective, from the Laguna Pueblo perspective or just your village.

Topher:

are there things like that, that you kind of like learned about, about

Topher:

relationships that you have with plants or anything like that, or like planted

Topher:

spaces that maybe you took for granted?

Topher:

And then once you kind of went out into the white world or predominantly

Topher:

sort of like mainstream world, you were like, wait, you know, like that

Topher:

surprised you that was different.

Rachelle:

Yeah.

Rachelle:

Oh man.

Rachelle:

That's a good question.

Rachelle:

I mean, so I think we had we've conversed about this before, and I, I had sort of

Rachelle:

mentioned to you, like, you know, coming from, uh, Spending all this time, um,

Rachelle:

you know, away from home, uh, that's just what we call it, you know, home.

Rachelle:

Um, I'm my brain is trained differently now.

Rachelle:

Like I, I have gone through these different processes that have affected

Rachelle:

the way I perceive the world and have.

Rachelle:

You know, excited in me this, like wanting to ask questions and know

Rachelle:

why things are the way they are.

Rachelle:

And, and so one of the things that like , I think is so annoying to

Rachelle:

my mom is, is I'm like, well, why is, why do we do it like this?

Rachelle:

Why do we do it like that?

Rachelle:

You know?

Rachelle:

And she's like, Stop asking these questions like the, the

Rachelle:

importance is not necessarily the explanation, it's the practice.

Rachelle:

And so I think it's similar with plantings.

Rachelle:

Like, you know, the, the way that we relate to plantings right now is very

Rachelle:

much, um, you know, corn is still something that's very important to us.

Rachelle:

Um, and you know, we use it in all of our practices and everything that

Rachelle:

we do, you know, It's an offering.

Rachelle:

It's a blessing.

Rachelle:

It's, it's a communication.

Rachelle:

And so I think like, or even the Cedar tree, you know, like all of

Rachelle:

these, these things that are sort of they're they're ever present and

Rachelle:

it's, and that's almost the important thing is like, not necessarily.

Rachelle:

Categorizing the relationship between, you know, the Pueblo person and corn, but

Rachelle:

really just understanding that it's there.

Rachelle:

It's, um, it doesn't need to be questioned.

Rachelle:

It doesn't need to be understood.

Rachelle:

there's no need to question or necessarily even understand it because

Rachelle:

it's like maybe a deeper, a deeper understanding that, you know, my being

Rachelle:

doesn't necessarily tap into it's it's like the understanding that I just get

Rachelle:

through connecting with my ancestors.

Rachelle:

I don't even know if any of this makes sense, but like it's almost just like not

Rachelle:

even needed to be understood or explained.

Rachelle:

Does that make sense?

Topher:

yeah, it does.

Topher:

And it's funny cuz it's like my Western brain is like, what do you mean?

Topher:

But there's a, there's a, almost like a par like a gardening part of my brain.

Topher:

That's just like, I get it.

Topher:

Like, I don't always have a reason for why I pick one plant that I put in a

Topher:

place or like why sometimes I go out in my garden and I just look at it and I

Topher:

feel like that's gardening for the day.

Topher:

Like sometimes I just go outta my garden and I just sit there and

Topher:

it feels like I did gardening.

Topher:

You know, like, it's the same as if I like.

Topher:

Went weeding.

Topher:

Like sometimes I just need to be out there and like hang out and I don't

Topher:

know that I could like qualify it.

Topher:

So it's interesting cuz as you're talking about that, I, I connect to some of

Rachelle:

Exactly.

Rachelle:

And, and I almost feel sometimes like, and again, this is still my

Rachelle:

like conditioned mind trying to like give, as you mentioned, qualify, this,

Rachelle:

this relationship is like, I don't need to understand it as myself as

Rachelle:

Rochelle, because I've understood it.

Rachelle:

For thousands of years, you know, and that understanding is just embedded in

Rachelle:

me and it's just there and that's that

Topher:

mm-hmm

Rachelle:

you know,

Topher:

that's cool.

Topher:

Do you bring that type of understanding to the work that you do or even.

Topher:

Do you bring that into like your own gardening?

Topher:

Cause I'd love to talk soon about kind of like how you approach your

Topher:

natural spaces around your house.

Rachelle:

I think I do.

Rachelle:

I think I do in the way that I'll segue into my space, which you saw the picture.

Rachelle:

It's crazy.

Topher:

I mean, there's one part, but I love your concept

Topher:

and like, it looks beautiful.

Topher:

Like it looks happy, right?

Topher:

Like it's.

Rachelle:

Yeah.

Topher:

no, one's gonna look at that and say it's the palace of Versai,

Topher:

but well, I'm getting ahead of it.

Topher:

So describe, describe the picture for folks who can't see it.

Rachelle:

well, I will say that it is probably about, Hmm, 80% volunteer based.

Rachelle:

So, what that means is that, you know, so I moved into the space.

Rachelle:

I moved into this house about four years ago.

Rachelle:

And, um, when I got there, it was this huge lawn, which I was like, definitely no

Topher:

Yeah, right.

Rachelle:

No trees just a poor, you know, um, a, a little like two foot stump

Rachelle:

of a, actually it was a Colorado blue spruce that was inappropriately planted.

Rachelle:

And so, you know, it had to be cut down.

Rachelle:

Um, but yeah, there was nothing there.

Rachelle:

And so I started with some sunflower.

Rachelle:

And that was it.

Topher:

That's awesome.

Rachelle:

so, oh man.

Rachelle:

So the cool thing that happened is I did some sort of like wild flower stuff too.

Rachelle:

Cuz I knew that I wanted one piece of it to be.

Rachelle:

Pretty wild, you know, and then the other piece, I, I sort of just

Rachelle:

wanted it to be easy to deal with, cuz it's a huge space and I'm like,

Rachelle:

ah, I don't wanna deal with it.

Rachelle:

and so I knew I just wanted kind of trees in that area, but there's this one little

Rachelle:

pocket that I was like, go wild, you know?

Rachelle:

And so I started off with just the sunflower seeds, mammoth sunflowers.

Rachelle:

So like the, um, the flower is probably like.

Rachelle:

1.5 of your head.

Rachelle:

it's like huge, you know, they're.

Topher:

Okay.

Rachelle:

And, um, and basically what happened is that that attracted the birds.

Rachelle:

Right?

Rachelle:

And then, so they started interacting and eating the seeds and, you

Rachelle:

know, they had some other seeds on them from messing with some, you

Rachelle:

know, other stuff down the street.

Rachelle:

And they dropped that in my space.

Rachelle:

The next year I get these other kind of.

Rachelle:

The these other kind of volunteer sunflowers too.

Rachelle:

And, and it's just been a ripple effect.

Rachelle:

So now I have like three varieties of sunflowers that only one of

Rachelle:

which is originally intended for.

Rachelle:

And, um, and it's just this like amazing little network of bees was.

Rachelle:

Spurts like anything and everything just pollinating, you know, just loving

Rachelle:

themselves, rubbing out, getting fat and continuing the cycle, you know?

Rachelle:

And so like, and every year it gets crazier and crazier.

Rachelle:

and I it's to the point where it's a, it's a little wild now I have to, you

Rachelle:

know, come in and like clean it out.

Rachelle:

Um, but I've even, I even have, um, so maybe about two years ago,

Rachelle:

my dad threw a Walnut from his tree in there and it came up.

Topher:

wow,

Rachelle:

It came up.

Rachelle:

I have a little baby Walnut.

Rachelle:

That's maybe about like 18 inches tall and it's making it.

Rachelle:

Yeah.

Rachelle:

But I mean, now I'm gonna have to move it out of the space

Rachelle:

cause it can't live there.

Rachelle:

But, um, so yeah, so I do bring that into my own space.

Rachelle:

, it's been really cool to see, to let the birds and the bees take

Rachelle:

over and let you know, let them decide what's coming up in here.

Topher:

it's it's cool because there's almost this, I think a lot

Topher:

of people think like, I don't wanna have to take care of my yard, so I'm

Topher:

just gonna make it grass because.

Topher:

That's the thing that maybe like our culture has said is easy.

Topher:

It's like an expectation.

Topher:

Everybody has a mower in their garage.

Topher:

Everybody uses this kind of fertilizer.

Topher:

Everybody installs a sprinkler system, everybody, you know?

Topher:

And so like there's all these things.

Topher:

And what you described is a totally different.

Topher:

Approach to, I don't wanna have to manicure every little piece of this

Topher:

water, every little piece of this.

Topher:

And instead you've allowed nature to do what nature does anyways, which is to

Topher:

tend a space, make it vibrant and diverse.

Rachelle:

Exactly.

Rachelle:

Mm-hmm

Topher:

I think it's so fascinating to think about just like allowing spaces to

Topher:

kind of like decide what they want to.

Topher:

Rather than you deciding those

Rachelle:

Yep.

Rachelle:

Yep.

Rachelle:

And then, so what do I have, so, you know, of course, like what do I get out of it?

Rachelle:

It, it's amazing to have the birds and the bees there.

Rachelle:

Like it's a, it's a whole soundscape in there, but then also, you know,

Rachelle:

I have these sunflowers that are eight feet tall, so I, my whole

Rachelle:

entire front porch is screened.

Rachelle:

like, I, I do not see the street

Topher:

right, right.

Rachelle:

and it's also cooler, you know, they help to cool the

Rachelle:

front part of the house down.

Rachelle:

Um, so it it's just like, it's perfect.

Rachelle:

You know, I mean, it looks crazy, but I don't think once people kind of understand

Rachelle:

the function of it, it's like, oh, okay.

Rachelle:

That kind of makes sense.

Rachelle:

You know?

Rachelle:

Yes.

Topher:

cool.

Topher:

That's really inspiring.

Rachelle:

Yeah, because you give one thing it's and it attract

Rachelle:

it's an attraction, you know?

Rachelle:

And then all of a sudden you've got all the species there, you know,

Rachelle:

hanging out, spreading the word.

Rachelle:

I mean, I'm sure I've even spread to my neighbors.

Rachelle:

Oops.

Topher:

That's awesome.

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

You're like you're wilding your entire neighborhood.

Topher:

Amazing.

Rachelle:

but it's beautiful flowers.

Rachelle:

So no complaints.

Topher:

Yeah.

Rachelle:

Oh, snap.

Rachelle:

I forgot to mention, so guess what else popped up?

Rachelle:

Cilantro.

Topher:

really

Rachelle:

Cilantro popped its ass up and I was, was doing, what the hell is that?

Rachelle:

So I ate it and I was, that is cilantro.

Topher:

That's wild.

Rachelle:

I could not believe it.

Rachelle:

And then I was like, no, you don't, you shouldn't go there.

Rachelle:

So I tried to move him.

Rachelle:

He didn't make it.

Topher:

Uh, they're tough.

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

I like, it's weird how, like some of the herbs, like you try

Topher:

and rehome them and they're just like, no, I wanted to be there.

Topher:

I'm out.

Rachelle:

know.

Rachelle:

Why did you do that?

Rachelle:

I was perfectly content happily, you know, made my way here.

Rachelle:

I do not know where that came from.

Rachelle:

That was the most bizarre thing ever.

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About the Podcast

Clippings
Non-expert Gardening
"For anyone who wants a little taste of sunshine."

Clippings is a gardening show that's more about plant enthusiasm than plant expertise. Host Topher Burns just moved from an apartment in Brooklyn to a house in Portland - finally some dirt to play with, and he has got *projects* planned. Things don't always go right. Warning: some plants might die. Fortunately his mom's green-thumb advice is just a phone call away.

For master gardeners and marigold-novices alike, each episode is a quick, delightful moment spent outside. Imagine leaning over your fence and asking your neighbor what he's doing in his yard today. You might get some helpful gardening tips, you might just enjoy the sound of the birds. Either way, you're going to be glad you took a moment to stop and smell the gardenias.

About your host

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Topher Burns

Born in Albuquerque, hardened in NYC, and rapidly softening in Portland Oregon. Former TV blogger, current tarot novice, and future bronze medal gymnast at the 2048 senior olympic games in Raleigh-Durham. Founded a branding agency for regenerative businesses. DM for pics of his cats.