Episode 14

full
Published on:

10th Dec 2022

Stop buying birdseed (s1e14)

This conversation with Jonathan from @BundyCreekNatives did nothing less than change how I think about gardening. I think it'll do the same for you. Before you press play, ask yourself this simple question: "why do I buy birdseed?" Then strap the *!@# in.

For more information about habitat gardening here's a quick article with an introduction to some basic ideas.

Want to see pics from the garden? Instagram: @freshclippings


Show art by Alison McKenzie

Production guidance from Evan Roberts

Special thanks to Jeremy Bloom


Episode music from Blue Dot Sessions:

Our Son the Potter (Love and Weasel)

Pigpaddle Creek (Sour Mash)

Gamboler (Pglet)

Pili Piper (Pglet)

Spring Cleaning (Love and Weasel)

Frank and Poet (Reflections)

Transcript
Topher:

I know it's a little late in the season.

Topher:

In fact, it snowed here in Portland last weekend.

Topher:

But before this, Sheds its sleeves and hibernates for the winter.

Topher:

Just like my Japanese maple out front.

Topher:

We have a lot of really great recordings, interviews, planting

Topher:

content that we took along the way, so we're not quite hibernating yet.

Topher:

There's a lot more to come, so stay tuned So today's episode,

Topher:

Was actually really hard to edit.

Topher:

I like to keep things pretty quick in terms of episode length.

Topher:

I want it to be something that you can do the dishes while you're

Topher:

listening to, or just pop it in for a nice little taste of being outdoors.

Topher:

But the interview that I did today, Blew my mind pretty

Topher:

much every topic we covered.

Topher:

It fundamentally changed how I think about gardening, how I think about

Topher:

the plants that I live with, and how I experience just walking around my city.

Topher:

And I think it will do the same for you, so it's a little longer,

Topher:

but I promise you it's worth it.

Topher:

Let's get into it.

Topher:

Um, you and I, I first sort of wanted to get in touch based on an Instagram

Topher:

post that you made that I want to dive.

Topher:

Um, in detail it a little bit later, but first, just tell us about your

Topher:

Instagram project, Bundy Creek Natives.

Topher:

Introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your background,

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: So my name is Jonathan.

Topher:

I live in San Diego.

Topher:

, I do not have any formal education on, , ecological

Topher:

restoration or habitat gardening.

Topher:

And it's all just through my own passion.

Topher:

And so, , I've done a lot of self education and just

Topher:

connecting with other people.

Topher:

And, uh, I initially, had my interest in habitat gardening

Topher:

through, just being connected to nature through hiking and camping.

Topher:

And, um, one thing led to another and, uh, before I knew it, I was

Topher:

really, really interested in habitat gardening and using native plants as

Topher:

a means to, connect myself to nature, and to just help the environment.

Topher:

And like, so habitat gardening just means like you are gardening

Topher:

to create habitats for wildlife.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Yeah, so it's gardening

Topher:

with, species in mind.

Topher:

Um, typically I think people usually are most connected to birds.

Topher:

Um, some people have fear of insects, so, um, for many people, uh, insects

Topher:

aren't even a part of the picture.

Topher:

But birds tend to get that golden highlight of the reach that people are

Topher:

trying to kind of attract to the yard.

Topher:

Um, butterflies as well.

Topher:

Sometimes bees, but then you get other insects that are kind of

Topher:

overshadowed by the popular species.

Topher:

Interesting.

Topher:

What are some of your favorite, insects that you feel like get overlooked?

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Um, I think there's a lot of really

Topher:

small insects that might not be as beautiful or as like, large as

Topher:

like a giant swallow tail butterfly or as a brightly colored bird.

Topher:

So sometimes I'm noticing, just like very small little beetles running on

Topher:

the ground, that love decaying wood.

Topher:

And so there are so many aspects to nature, uh, and elements that people don't

Topher:

want in their yard that are just really important to have for these species.

Topher:

It's interesting that you mentioned that specifically

Topher:

on decaying wood cause.

Topher:

I think one of the things that people don't tend to associate as natural is

Topher:

things like decay and, um, that process of kind of being broken, things being broken

Topher:

down, we tend to think of things as like it's rotten or it's dirty, or it's, um,

Topher:

kind of cluttered and we think of that.

Topher:

We exclude that from the natural system and we exclude that from our gardens.

Topher:

But once you mentioned it, that idea of just sort of, you know, bugs

Topher:

liking to hang out around a kingwood like that is as important as the

Topher:

things that we think of as alive.

Topher:

Like that's just as alive as, you know, a happy flower, you know?

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Yeah.

Topher:

And it's an important element to nature.

Topher:

Um, I think that the, the death and decaying process is something

Topher:

that's really underrepresented, in gardens, and, and really

Topher:

underappreciated in culture.

Topher:

That's so cool.

Topher:

That's really interesting.

Topher:

I never thought of it that way.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Yeah, so, , growing up with my

Topher:

parents, , they were always really not so fond of like decaying wood.

Topher:

Uh, they associated it with termites and all sorts of other insects that

Topher:

they didn't find to be very pleasant.

Topher:

And, it's just an incredibly important, food source for all sorts

Topher:

of insects to feed on and all sorts of birds like woodpeckers that rely

Topher:

on decaying wood, and for the species that they eat that live inside of it.

Topher:

And other bird species that kind of forage for insects that revolve around decaying

Topher:

would, um, and, and decaying leaf matter.

Topher:

So how do you incorporate those act?

Topher:

Like, what do you do?

Topher:

Do you just like go find a log and bring it into your space?

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: So great question.

Topher:

Um, I think in some cases people might have, , enough plant material

Topher:

around their homes to have that.

Topher:

But I think the better thing we can do instead of trying to incorporate

Topher:

every single element into our yard is, um, when we don't have an area that

Topher:

we can incorporate one element, how can we look and incorporate another?

Topher:

Because I don't think, uh, every single one of us is capable of doing that.

Topher:

And I currently live in this very small apartment complex.

Topher:

, so having Deadwood is not really easy for me to have laying

Topher:

around on a concrete area.

Topher:

So I'd say for people that have yards, uh, it's a really wonderful

Topher:

thing to just allow to happen this natural process of decaying wood.

Topher:

But then for so many of us that, that don't have that option, we have to find

Topher:

different ways in which we can kinda help the environment out and create habitat.

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

So from what I understand, you kind of have two different spaces that

Topher:

you're able to bring your interests around habitat gardening into.

Topher:

One is the property, that you grew up on, that you still maintain.

Topher:

And then the other is your more urban apartment style.

Topher:

Um, how do you think about those two things differently?

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: So these are two completely

Topher:

different worlds I grew up.

Topher:

A little over an acre of property.

Topher:

And so this is still my parents', property and I still do a lot of planting on it.

Topher:

Um, so I went from, uh, a good amount of property and doing all sorts of

Topher:

gardening straight into the ground and having trees and, and, and vast habitat

Topher:

to, , now living in a very small space.

Topher:

And so it's really challenging and very contrasting from what I used to.

Topher:

But I'm trying to do my best to have potted plants around my area.

Topher:

And I'm starting to realize that this is actually a very important.

Topher:

Because I, I didn't initially, I, I had reservations about it and I was

Topher:

really unsure if I would have a positive impact by having these plants present.

Topher:

I just kind of looked at this concrete jungle as a very sterile area where,

Topher:

, habitat wouldn't be able to be a thing.

Topher:

, but now I'm realizing that, even though we've built these very urban areas, so

Topher:

many species are still traveling through them, whether they be insects or birds.

Topher:

And so I'm trying to do my best to kind of create an environment

Topher:

within a very urban environment.

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

the way that I've heard that described is as corridor habitats, you know,

Topher:

habitats that link other larger areas.

Topher:

Um, and it's interesting, I talked with, , a friend of mine, Joelle, who.

Topher:

Grew up in the Bronx and now lives in Brooklyn.

Topher:

, and we talked a lot about what nature means and how people who don't necessarily

Topher:

grow up in urban environments tend to think of cities as kind of other,

Topher:

like, they, they aren't natural because we put up an apartment building, so

Topher:

therefore it's no longer a natural space.

Topher:

And I think it's really interesting to talk with people about changing that idea.

Topher:

And so I'm curious, what are some of the like little natural moments that

Topher:

you've had that surprised you since moving into your more urban space?

Topher:

. clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside:

Topher:

your point, like it's, it's so true in that we are all a part of nature.

Topher:

And I, and I think for many of us, I mean, like I I, I've talked to people

Topher:

in the past who feel very kind of disconnected because of the concrete

Topher:

jungle they live in and believe in like the wild, as a separate place and,

Topher:

and, and human civilization as another.

Topher:

Um, but I, I think we should view it as, as being more connected and

Topher:

especially realizing that every breath we take, we're breathing in fungi fors

Topher:

and, and all sorts of microbiology.

Topher:

But the, uh, one thing I've noticed is, uh, I tend to have a lot of, um,

Topher:

insects that eat plants in my yard.

Topher:

And so, by planting these potted plants, uh, noticing quite a bit of munching going

Topher:

on, like on the plants that I have in

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: And at first I was concerned

Topher:

about this cuz I'm having like grasshoppers and Katie DIDs, , coming

Topher:

in and they're even like breeding.

Topher:

They're even like, I'm showing like little ones are showing up in the yard.

Topher:

, my first initial concern was that they would eat these plants

Topher:

to the ground . But what I've

Topher:

what we all would be like, my reaction is not like, Oh, it's great

Topher:

that these bugs are eating my plants.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: right?

Topher:

Yes.

Topher:

Especially when you're limited on the amount of plants you have, which I was,

Topher:

um, but I eventually realized that a lot of these insects were just trying to eat.

Topher:

This particular leaves on the plants.

Topher:

So these like fresh new leaves that were growing, um, and they weren't

Topher:

actually killing these plants.

Topher:

And I had, uh, most of the plants on my patio are, are native plants.

Topher:

And, I started realizing their importance in their presence,

Topher:

, because their presence means that there's a place for birds.

Topher:

And, um, the vast majority of bird species either eat insects as a part

Topher:

of their daily diet or, or they rely on them for feeding their young.

Topher:

Hmm.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: So creating an environment where

Topher:

insects can thrive in general, wherever you live, um, is really important.

Topher:

And creating a, a diverse, , environment with diverse insects

Topher:

is also very important as.

Topher:

That's fascinating cuz that actually takes us to where

Topher:

you and I got connected, which was a post that you made on Instagram.

Topher:

It just came up in my discover feed while I was searching

Topher:

hashtags and , it was basically about growing your own bird seed.

Topher:

And I would love for you to just describe the message of that post and tell us

Topher:

a little bit about how you got there.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Ooh.

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

So, I realized that,, bird seed is a multi-billion dollar industry,

Topher:

and, , there are so many people in the US and globally that, , view this as

Topher:

a really nice hobby or even a duty to help birds, by purchasing bird seed.

Topher:

, and so the more I learned about how big this interest rate, some $4

Topher:

billion a year is spent in America on grid seed, um, it really got

Topher:

me thinking about these numbers.

Topher:

And, , there's an environmental cost of bird seed production and everything

Topher:

from land use, uh, with mono like monocultural crops, pollution in the

Topher:

process, land degradation by all sorts of herbicides, pesticides, um, you think

Topher:

about like plastic production, all of these seeds are shipped in plastic bags.

Topher:

There's shipping associated with it.

Topher:

And so there's so many tolls that birds seed actually.

Topher:

Takes on the environment.

Topher:

, but they, the weird part of it is, and the unfortunate part of it is

Topher:

so many Americans are, are viewing purchasing this bird seed as a, a really

Topher:

beneficial solution to helping birds out.

Topher:

And so people feel very connected, , by feeding birds.

Topher:

, but is there a better way that we can do that aside from buying

Topher:

bagged bird seed, , from the grocery store or wherever we get it?

Topher:

And I think there is.

Topher:

And so that's kind of what the post is about.

Topher:

Yeah, I mean it's fascinating cuz I had never thought of it and I

Topher:

absolutely am part of those groups of people that you're talking about who

Topher:

are like, Well, one of the things I wanna do in my natural space that I'm

Topher:

cultivating is that I want birds to have resources and so let me buy bird seed.

Topher:

And what I didn't think about until you posted about this was that the

Topher:

bird seed thing that's happening is we moved into this space that birds were

Topher:

happy with and they were doing great.

Topher:

And then we plowed over their natural habitats.

Topher:

We put asphalt and then we had.

Topher:

Uh, garden beds and we like put up different plants that they don't eat.

Topher:

And then we were like, Oh, but these birds still need to eat.

Topher:

So then what we decided to do is to plow over a different section of

Topher:

natural habitat somewhere hundreds and hundreds of thousands of miles

Topher:

away in like Iowa or whatever.

Topher:

And then on that area we planted only one crop and we sprayed it with pesticides

Topher:

and herbicides that like keep all the other, uh, you know, plants out of the

Topher:

picture and keep bugs out of the picture.

Topher:

And so that area is also not a happy place for birds.

Topher:

Then we harvest this seed that we grew in those places.

Topher:

We put it in plastic, we ship it all the way back to me and instead what it

Topher:

you're saying in this post and I'd like to learn more of is just like, Why don't

Topher:

we not do all of that, and why don't we just grow the things in such a way

Topher:

that fed the birds who were here before?

Topher:

Let's just do that more.

Topher:

And it's, instead of cutting this like, you know, massive multi-systemic,

Topher:

you know, journey all over the US just to give birds food that we like

Topher:

took from them in the first place.

Topher:

Is that, am I phrasing that right?

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Yeah.

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

And I mean, it's not that these, even these seed companies that really actually

Topher:

are doing anything at all for the environment, they're profiting off of it.

Topher:

And you put it really, really well in that we have altered this land so much.

Topher:

And so what is that exchange?

Topher:

The exchange is, also just less insects because if we're having less habitat,

Topher:

and we're having monocultural crops and, and we're creating environments

Topher:

where we're just putting seed out, but not the plants that they rely on.

Topher:

, insects are a huge part of this as well.

Topher:

Uh, another aspect of that is,, people don't clean their bird

Topher:

feeders as often as they should.

Topher:

, and so.

Topher:

There tends to be a risk of, , disease spread.

Topher:

There's a few different diseases, , that are harming birds.

Topher:

And we can tie that to, , birds congregating in areas.

Topher:

Um, so since 1970, , North America has lost 29% of its bird population.

Topher:

Mm-hmm.

Topher:

, clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: but another issue with stationary

Topher:

feeding is, , not only with disease spread, but , predation.

Topher:

So we're seeing that cats are a huge.

Topher:

With, with bird species.

Topher:

And so when you're having a bird feeder, it's kinda set up in one area.

Topher:

It's kind of the prime hunting grounds for these feral or outdoor cats, , to

Topher:

just have a space to prey on birds.

Topher:

And so, stationary feeders, can be pretty problematic in a number of ways.

Topher:

Uh, but when we're growing native plants in our yard, it kind of helps

Topher:

this natural process of, , a constant evolution of these plants, doing

Topher:

their process of, of growing flowers and growing seed and going dormant

Topher:

or dying if they're in the annual.

Topher:

And so, um, it's, it's renewing itself.

Topher:

It's a fresh supply.

Topher:

, and it also is constantly moving.

Topher:

It's constantly evolving.

Topher:

It's not just sitting in one place.

Topher:

So what are the, for a person who hears this and.

Topher:

and that person is me.

Topher:

Like, Wow, I never thought of this.

Topher:

What's the first step for changing how you approach, how you feed birds,

Topher:

how you give nutrition to birds that are in your, in your environment.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: So, um, for me it's just looking

Topher:

at the plants that have co-evolved with the land that I live on.

Topher:

And so, , I'm trying my best to have a, as much of a sustainable approach

Topher:

and native plants seem to be one of the most beneficial things we can do.

Topher:

, so I think the first step is be aware of, of what plants.

Topher:

Naturally grow in your area that are locally native to your area.

Topher:

And that create a food source for birds and insects alike.

Topher:

, and also understand that if it, if you can, um, it's really helpful to

Topher:

plant a variety of different plants as well, uh, and an abundance if possible.

Topher:

Cuz where there's a variety of different plants, you get a

Topher:

varying, , types of insects as well.

Topher:

And so the world of birds revolves around more than just seed.

Topher:

And that's what I want people to realize is seeds are a great

Topher:

start to being connected to birds.

Topher:

But there are so many other things.

Topher:

That we can do to make birds attracted to our yard, um, and to offer them a place

Topher:

of refuge and a place of food and habitat.

Topher:

That's cool.

Topher:

And that kind of takes me back a little bit further even the name of

Topher:

your Instagram is Bundy Creek native and

Topher:

that name refers to the environment that you grew up in.

Topher:

Um, and so I'm curious if you could tell us a little bit more about

Topher:

that, your relationship with it and like what that environment was

Topher:

like , both when you started and then maybe how it's changed as you've been

Topher:

able to kind of work with it, um, and invest in it as habitat gardening.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Yeah, so my, my parents' property is very

Topher:

close to this watershed called Bundy Creek and this watershed, , has some of the last

Topher:

habitat in the town that I grew up in.

Topher:

Um, it's just kind of an area that's really not so altered by humans.

Topher:

And so, um, my parents used to spray, , herbicide over what seems like

Topher:

every inch of the land in the past.

Topher:

, and I convinced them to stop doing that cuz I was curious to see what

Topher:

would happen and what would show up.

Topher:

And what started happening is, um, plants from all over, especially from this

Topher:

watershed, had blown their way into the yard and started going, and this was

Topher:

everything from annual sunflower species.

Topher:

Buck weed species and other really beneficial species

Topher:

for insects and, and birds.

Topher:

, and so the, the exchange was having, not a lot of habitat and a lot of

Topher:

annual weeds to us just trying to have a different , approach to the

Topher:

land, , and trying to get back to the roots of locally native species.

Topher:

And so there's, there's many ways in which I've been able to see

Topher:

the importance of this through, different bird species and different

Topher:

insect species kind of coexisting.

Topher:

One of my favorite, things about their property is there's some

Topher:

annual plant habitat, and there's an insane amount of, small

Topher:

butterflies and bees and,, there are.

Topher:

Birds that rely exclusively on insects that feed and forage in this one area.

Topher:

And so, um, Black Phoebes and SAS Phoebes, for example, will hang out in these

Topher:

areas because of the presence of insects.

Topher:

And so, seeds are one part of it.

Topher:

An insects or another,

Topher:

mm-hmm.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Sorry, I.

Topher:

No, no.

Topher:

I'm just like, Yep.

Topher:

Preach.

Topher:

So what does it feel like, Did your parents love, like, it sounds like

Topher:

at first they were like, Well, we don't love having weeds around,

Topher:

which is a certainly prevailing and also understandable point of view.

Topher:

And so do they like the changes that have happened and how, was there a

Topher:

click for them where they were like, Oh, this is actually really cool.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Yeah, they've, they've, they've come

Topher:

around and, , initially there was some concern because a lot of these

Topher:

species of plants that were showing up were just, I mean, they were

Topher:

so wild looking and so scraggly.

Topher:

But, the, the, the thing I love the most about the experience, , of

Topher:

discontinuing herbicide and then just seeing native plants show up and

Topher:

fostering habitat is we were able to be much more connected to the land.

Topher:

And so we were able to see just how it functions and how, in our experience,

Topher:

the seasons of Southern California, how, how those play out throughout the year.

Topher:

And, we felt way more connected because we made this exchange, , of, I.

Topher:

Trying to work against the land, working with it.

Topher:

And so, , the, the presence of all these species showing up because of

Topher:

the way that we were able to manage the land differently, , has and does

Topher:

continue to have an impact on my parents.

Topher:

And, they still have the property.

Topher:

They went there and, , they're able to see more biodiversity, and just a functioning

Topher:

habitat with all these different species that can in varying ways, , contribute

Topher:

to and be present in the landscape.

Topher:

does it look better?

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: I think so.

Topher:

But I think

Topher:

Like, what is it like even sort of subjectively, like, is it

Topher:

like, oh, and it like, now we have more flowers, Or like, you know what I mean?

Topher:

Like, I don't know what's the, how do I picture this change even?

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Yeah, so well, there's a seasonal,

Topher:

I mean, at least here in Southern California, we get a pretty long

Topher:

dry dormant season of plants.

Topher:

And so, that takes some getting used to for people that kind

Topher:

of associate green as good.

Topher:

Um, some plants just have their dormancy periods and so it's still a process.

Topher:

Brown plants just don't look as healthy.

Topher:

And so it took a while for my parents to recognize that they were doing

Topher:

exactly what they were meant to do.

Topher:

Um, but the challenging part is when people live in a homeowner's association

Topher:

and they can't have brown plants or they can't have big plants or plants

Topher:

that look like they're out of control.

Topher:

And so for many of us, we have to really, if we want to kind of,

Topher:

uh, rewild our yards, some of us are very limited and have to be

Topher:

very careful about our approaches.

Topher:

, especially with HOAs.

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

It's interesting because, you know, we're talking about.

Topher:

Things that are natural, like brown plants are very natural.

Topher:

That's a normal part of a plant's life cycle.

Topher:

And, things that are dying or decaying, , or are discarded from parts

Topher:

of plants, those are all very natural.

Topher:

But we, on the other hand, it's like no, green is the only thing that's natural

Topher:

and, in control is the only thing that's, you know, like nature must be, , neat and

Topher:

green in order for us to appreciate it.

Topher:

And it's interesting how those two things are kind of juxtaposed within

Topher:

the work that you're doing around native species and rewilding spaces.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Yeah.

Topher:

Well, and I, I too, you're reminding me of kind of an experience I had

Topher:

recently where I challenged myself to look at the landscape, at my parents'

Topher:

property, , in the time where the plants were most dormant, and stretch myself to

Topher:

find out how I could see life happening and how I can see habitat happening.

Topher:

And while there might not be as much activity in maybe the autumn

Topher:

months in southern California with insects, there's still a lot going on.

Topher:

And so flowers are spent and some of these flower clusters of buck wheat, for

Topher:

example, are providing habitat for insect.

Topher:

To live in, um, to live on.

Topher:

And so, spiders also have their prime time, uh, during the autumn

Topher:

months in Southern California.

Topher:

Um, because they're able to build webs on all this dormant decay

Topher:

that's not constantly moving.

Topher:

And so, , that's a really important season for spiders to be producing webs.

Topher:

And then spiders are really important as soft-bodied insects for birds

Topher:

cuz they feed them to their young and they eat them themselves.

Topher:

So I try to stretch myself to think, how can I look at these, , not so lively

Topher:

seasons, , and see the life in them.

Topher:

That's cool.

Topher:

Yeah, it's interesting.

Topher:

It makes me think differently about the things that I clean from my yard and the

Topher:

things that I, you know, oh, this spider web needs to go away, it's interesting

Topher:

to reframe it, um, and to be able to kind of think about it in a different way.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Yeah.

Topher:

So how does, um, somebody who's interested in rewilding or native

Topher:

species, like what is a good first step?

Topher:

. clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside:

Topher:

as a natural bird seed, uh, an insect detractors.

Topher:

And so, , I would say for anyone wanting to get into it, , try

Topher:

to figure out what plants might be locally native to your area.

Topher:

And one good, uh, word of advice is, if you can plant three of one plant.

Topher:

This actually really helps, uh, species be able to forage, bees and

Topher:

butterflies like to have multiple plants in an area so that they can visit

Topher:

different plants that are flowering.

Topher:

And even if these plants have a lot of flower production, um, having a

Topher:

larger amount of them than just one individual plant can be very beneficial.

Topher:

And maybe just start with one species.

Topher:

Another thing is social media is a great way, to get connected.

Topher:

, so if anyone has.

Topher:

Instagram or Facebook or Twitter.

Topher:

, there is a huge, huge, huge, social media presence within these platforms

Topher:

for people who are interested in habitat gardening and do it.

Topher:

And so try to get connected, you know, look at hashtags, uh, for maybe

Topher:

like native plants to your area.

Topher:

Um, there are plenty of native plant societies throughout the United States

Topher:

as well, and, that's always a good first step to kind of be inspired and

Topher:

have some, some insight on how you can make your space better, uh, and,

Topher:

and have more habitat for species.

, Topher:

I loved your point about using three, um, because I think sometimes

, Topher:

it's a mistake from like a more, um, rewilding, a native perspective, but

, Topher:

it's also a mistake from like a garden design perspective to have just like

, Topher:

a lot of just one thing of each thing.

, Topher:

It like visually it's actually worse too.

, Topher:

Like aesthetically it's very.

, Topher:

Hard to have one of everything because then you're not, there's no consistency.

, Topher:

You don't know what you're looking at.

, Topher:

And I can sometimes get excited about variety.

, Topher:

I had this conversation with my husband this past weekend where I was like,

, Topher:

Oh, I wanna put some irises over there.

, Topher:

And he was like, So, uh, like, where else would Iris's be?

, Topher:

And I'm like, Oh, well I don't think anywhere else because, you know,

, Topher:

there's not like that much more space.

, Topher:

And he was like, Well, what about if you used something that we

, Topher:

have in other places already?

, Topher:

And it's such a good reminder that just like, also variety's important, but one

, Topher:

of everything will be not, as effective.

, Topher:

And it's nice when sort of like the aesthetic rules dovetail with the natural

, Topher:

rules because that kind of like, It reminds you that you may have actually

, Topher:

like an innate sense of some of the signals of natural environments being

, Topher:

strong, and that would mean multiple of, of one thing rather than just

, Topher:

sort of like this hodgepodge of stuff.

, Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Yeah.

, Topher:

Well, and it, it makes me think about, you know, how can, how can we fundamentally

, Topher:

change the way we view gardening?

, Topher:

And for many of us, we have this idea of gardening that's kind of already

, Topher:

been built in this way, um, that is very tied to being a consumer and, and, and

, Topher:

making the design look a certain way.

, Topher:

But I think one of the most important things, and one thing

, Topher:

that's brought me a whole lot of joy is being able to ask myself,

, Topher:

not what can I do to make the yard?

, Topher:

Me exactly what I want and what I want to see and, and where I want things to

, Topher:

go, but how can I let the yard, , be a place of sanctuary and of regeneration

, Topher:

and, let ecological health be the focus in how I plant and what I.

Topher:

Mm-hmm.

Topher:

. We talked a little bit about how gardens, , in common sort of

Topher:

cultural perspective, , are orderly.

Topher:

They are, Always alive.

Topher:

They are, , trimmed the moment that they become brown.

Topher:

And how does thinking about gardens from the perspective of, native species and

Topher:

habitat gardening, how does that shift how you personally or how I might think

Topher:

about what a garden is and its purpose?

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: I'll, I'll share a story.

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: parents had a letter dropped in their

Topher:

mailbox from an anonymous neighbor, um, a little passive aggressive kind of a

Topher:

letter that said, Hi, your neighbor here.

Topher:

Uh, please, like, cut down the weeds.

Topher:

Your yard would look so much better.

Topher:

Uh, and

Topher:

Wow.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: my response was, I bought a sign

Topher:

that said , bird habitat, and installed it on the street corner.

Topher:

And so, um, I think for many people they still will view these gardens

Topher:

even if they have such well intentions and they're beautifully put.

Topher:

Um, will still view them as an eyesore and will view them as.

Topher:

Hmm.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Um, not the best looking yard because

Topher:

of their, their, their, their dormancy periods or the growth patterns that

Topher:

aren't, uh, trimmed all the time.

Topher:

Um, and, and so it's, it's a, it's a, it's a stretch for a lot of people and I think

Topher:

even for people in the habitat gardening community,, being able to let go of some

Topher:

of these ways that were conditioned in gardening culture can be really tough.

Topher:

Like maybe we don't have to deadhead everything and , maybe we can leave

Topher:

leaves in certain places or allow wood to decay like we were talking about earlier.

Topher:

So even in that, even in the habitat gardening realm, there are still

Topher:

plenty of ways in which we can.

Topher:

Let go of, , the ways that we have been so influenced by the iconic gardening,

Topher:

which is the us managing a land approach, , and us taming a land approach.

Topher:

And so it's a process of letting go, I think in a lot of ways.

Topher:

How can we sit back and evaluate what's going on and see the ways in

Topher:

which nature works, uh, and, and work with it instead of working against it.

Topher:

That's cool.

Topher:

It's almost like reframing, uh, what do we have to teach the plants

Topher:

to, like what are the plants and birds and stuff have to teach us?

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Yeah.

Topher:

I mean, I'm really very grateful that you're out there and kind of sharing

Topher:

this perspective and helping like me just reframe how we're approaching even

Topher:

just small choices and one of the ways.

Topher:

You're, I think, shows that you're accomplishing what you're talking about

Topher:

and wanting to help do, is that, you know, after reading your post about bird seed,

Topher:

I totally kind of changed my approach to, plantings that I was gonna do.

Topher:

I'm still kind of working my way into this house.

Topher:

We're relatively new here and my husband asked me to plant some stuff

Topher:

on both sides of the, uh, house.

Topher:

And based on what you posted, I changed the types of plants that

Topher:

I was looking for and how I was thinking I was gonna use the space.

Topher:

And so I went straight to the native section.

Topher:

Um, at my nursery, it's sort of like a local nursery that has a lot of

Topher:

connections with local growers and looked for a range of different plants that were

Topher:

gonna hit at different seasons that worked well in those environments that were

Topher:

gonna need less water., and I had so much fun putting them in and imagining in two

Topher:

years as they get established and as they sort of start to work their way in, what

Topher:

those are gonna be like and what that's gonna mean for life in my neighborhood.

Topher:

And it was so fun to be able to think about that.

Topher:

And so I haven't changed everything that I'm doing, but being able to just

Topher:

think about that new point of view in one specific project has kind of opened

Topher:

up and helped me start to develop muscles towards other things that I

Topher:

can do as I start to move forward too.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: It's, it's great that you're learning

Topher:

things continually and I hope everyone listening, uh, would just stretch

Topher:

themselves to be able to, to learn, continually and to be able to find

Topher:

different ways in which they can kind of work with the land to, to help nature.

Topher:

Yeah.

Topher:

That's awesome.

Topher:

Thank you.

Topher:

We, it's been a fascinating conversation and uh, it just makes me wanna go

Topher:

out into my backyard and just look at bugs, which I don't, I don't

Topher:

immediately think of usually, but now I'm just like, I wanna see who's

Topher:

out there and see what's going on.

Topher:

clippings_jonathan092822_jonathan_bidwell-1y2wwb9ty_2022-sep-28-1715pm-utc-riverside: Slow it down and enjoy the bugs

Topher:

Yeah, absolutely.

Topher:

If you wanna learn more from Jonathan and trust me, you do his Instagram handle.

Topher:

Bundy Creek Natives.

Topher:

And if you wanna follow us on Instagram, we're fresh clippings.

Topher:

Message us there and tell us what you liked most about today's show.

Topher:

In the meantime, thank you so much for joining us on Plant Time.

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for Clippings

About the Podcast

Clippings
Non-expert Gardening
"For anyone who wants a little taste of sunshine."

Clippings is a gardening show that's more about plant enthusiasm than plant expertise. Host Topher Burns just moved from an apartment in Brooklyn to a house in Portland - finally some dirt to play with, and he has got *projects* planned. Things don't always go right. Warning: some plants might die. Fortunately his mom's green-thumb advice is just a phone call away.

For master gardeners and marigold-novices alike, each episode is a quick, delightful moment spent outside. Imagine leaning over your fence and asking your neighbor what he's doing in his yard today. You might get some helpful gardening tips, you might just enjoy the sound of the birds. Either way, you're going to be glad you took a moment to stop and smell the gardenias.

About your host

Profile picture for Topher Burns

Topher Burns

Born in Albuquerque, hardened in NYC, and rapidly softening in Portland Oregon. Former TV blogger, current tarot novice, and future bronze medal gymnast at the 2048 senior olympic games in Raleigh-Durham. Founded a branding agency for regenerative businesses. DM for pics of his cats.